Comments on: The Clergy Question – Movements, Vocation and Institutionalism http://www.geoffreport.com/wp/2007/02/26/the-clergy-question-movements-vocation-and-institutionalism/ politics ~ theology ~ life ~ fart jokes Thu, 11 Feb 2010 13:44:38 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.9.1 hourly 1 By: scott http://www.geoffreport.com/wp/2007/02/26/the-clergy-question-movements-vocation-and-institutionalism/comment-page-1/#comment-3176 scott Tue, 27 Feb 2007 23:43:40 +0000 http://www.geoffreport.com/wp/2007/02/26/the-clergy-question-movements-vocation-and-institutionalism/#comment-3176 christina thinks I should qualify this a bit more. what I mean is that there are a good place for bible college and training such as Tabor, Bible College of Victoria, Forge etc. christina thinks I should qualify this a bit more. what I mean is that there are a good place for bible college and training such as Tabor, Bible College of Victoria, Forge etc.

]]> By: scott http://www.geoffreport.com/wp/2007/02/26/the-clergy-question-movements-vocation-and-institutionalism/comment-page-1/#comment-3172 scott Tue, 27 Feb 2007 22:20:53 +0000 http://www.geoffreport.com/wp/2007/02/26/the-clergy-question-movements-vocation-and-institutionalism/#comment-3172 Agree with you Steve regarding 'train, equip, support and encourage'. Agree with you Steve regarding ‘train, equip, support and encourage’.

]]> By: Steve Hayes http://www.geoffreport.com/wp/2007/02/26/the-clergy-question-movements-vocation-and-institutionalism/comment-page-1/#comment-3171 Steve Hayes Tue, 27 Feb 2007 22:14:07 +0000 http://www.geoffreport.com/wp/2007/02/26/the-clergy-question-movements-vocation-and-institutionalism/#comment-3171 Doesn't a lot depend on what you expect your clergy to do or to be, and that in turn depends on your ecclesiology, which depends on your Christology? A local congregation can have self-supporting clergy who live within its geographical area, but perhaps those who train, equip, support and encourage them need to be full-time. Doesn’t a lot depend on what you expect your clergy to do or to be, and that in turn depends on your ecclesiology, which depends on your Christology?

A local congregation can have self-supporting clergy who live within its geographical area, but perhaps those who train, equip, support and encourage them need to be full-time.

]]> By: The Preacher » Blog Archive » The Dangers of Professional Clergy and Institutionalism http://www.geoffreport.com/wp/2007/02/26/the-clergy-question-movements-vocation-and-institutionalism/comment-page-1/#comment-3167 The Preacher » Blog Archive » The Dangers of Professional Clergy and Institutionalism Tue, 27 Feb 2007 15:50:35 +0000 http://www.geoffreport.com/wp/2007/02/26/the-clergy-question-movements-vocation-and-institutionalism/#comment-3167 [...] at the GeoffRe(y)port, there is an interesting post on the unintended consequences of professional clergy. As I understand it, the problem is not so [...] [...] at the GeoffRe(y)port, there is an interesting post on the unintended consequences of professional clergy. As I understand it, the problem is not so [...]

]]> By: Paul http://www.geoffreport.com/wp/2007/02/26/the-clergy-question-movements-vocation-and-institutionalism/comment-page-1/#comment-3161 Paul Mon, 26 Feb 2007 11:13:21 +0000 http://www.geoffreport.com/wp/2007/02/26/the-clergy-question-movements-vocation-and-institutionalism/#comment-3161 Auditor's note: "Remuneration" even. :P Auditor’s note:

“Remuneration” even. :P

]]> By: Christina http://www.geoffreport.com/wp/2007/02/26/the-clergy-question-movements-vocation-and-institutionalism/comment-page-1/#comment-3160 Christina Mon, 26 Feb 2007 05:51:18 +0000 http://www.geoffreport.com/wp/2007/02/26/the-clergy-question-movements-vocation-and-institutionalism/#comment-3160 Thanks for raising this Geoff - I have been thinking about this a fair bit too. I certainly agree with everything Scott wrote, but have one thing to add. We expect leaders in a church to lead, volunteer their time and resources to input in the lives of others (usually for nothing) - like yourself at the moment Geoff. If leaders are to do so on top of their ordinary jobs, how is it any different for a church leader/pastor? If the church leader hasn't got time to do it and work a bit on the side, perhaps more delegation is required. Or maybe we need to live more simply to free us from the financial restraints that require a 2.5 job to maintain the mortgage. I don't think one role of leadership is more important than another, just different in either scope or area. This does become more difficult if a church is huge of course, but then I agree with the suggestion to keep on planting. That naturally helps size, and releases others to do what God has placed on them, without all being invested in just a couple of people. Thanks for raising this Geoff – I have been thinking about this a fair bit too. I certainly agree with everything Scott wrote, but have one thing to add. We expect leaders in a church to lead, volunteer their time and resources to input in the lives of others (usually for nothing) – like yourself at the moment Geoff. If leaders are to do so on top of their ordinary jobs, how is it any different for a church leader/pastor? If the church leader hasn’t got time to do it and work a bit on the side, perhaps more delegation is required. Or maybe we need to live more simply to free us from the financial restraints that require a 2.5 job to maintain the mortgage. I don’t think one role of leadership is more important than another, just different in either scope or area. This does become more difficult if a church is huge of course, but then I agree with the suggestion to keep on planting. That naturally helps size, and releases others to do what God has placed on them, without all being invested in just a couple of people.

]]> By: scott http://www.geoffreport.com/wp/2007/02/26/the-clergy-question-movements-vocation-and-institutionalism/comment-page-1/#comment-3158 scott Mon, 26 Feb 2007 05:13:48 +0000 http://www.geoffreport.com/wp/2007/02/26/the-clergy-question-movements-vocation-and-institutionalism/#comment-3158 Hi Geoff, Thanks for been part of the gathering last night. I suppose for me there are a number of reasons where I think paid positions mean alot of restrictions. Paid= Expectations, you are expected to fore fill some consumerist desire in people. Paid= heiracrchy, as mentioned by Charles a gulf between laity and the professional. Paid=one person has all the gifts. This is the what it is like with one church ministers. Having all the gifts is very unlikely except for Jesus. Paid=Obsession with the internal. Absolute frustration that 90% of Church funds are spent on one person whose role, is usually pastoral. Looking after the flock, and no time for callings such as evangelism/mission. Both Christina and myself don't get paid (we do get things like phone, utilities and other church expenses paid for). We have actually said we would rather it this way. Telling people this means that others in the church have to lift in there contribution. I think this is how the use of gifts should be, 'everyone gets to play' [really]. It also means that as a church our finances are freed up to spend with mission as focus. This is reflected in our balance sheet.(There is at least one person who the church is putting through the forge internship as well as a few overseas missions that we contribute to). Alot of these ideas have come from Neil Cole. He has some very interesting thing to think about. His main quote is 'lower the bar in what it means to be church, and raise the bar of disipleship'. I think this also means also is that the office of professional clergy should also drop. The quesion that I'm still figuring is 'where the 'buck stops', and is a real requirement of leadership. maybe another blog. Hi Geoff,
Thanks for been part of the gathering last night. I suppose for me there are a number of reasons where I think paid positions mean alot of restrictions.
Paid= Expectations, you are expected to fore fill some consumerist desire in people.
Paid= heiracrchy, as mentioned by Charles a gulf between laity and the professional.
Paid=one person has all the gifts. This is the what it is like with one church ministers. Having all the gifts is very unlikely except for Jesus.
Paid=Obsession with the internal. Absolute frustration that 90% of Church funds are spent on one person whose role, is usually pastoral. Looking after the flock, and no time for callings such as evangelism/mission.
Both Christina and myself don’t get paid (we do get things like phone, utilities and other church expenses paid for). We have actually said we would rather it this way. Telling people this means that others in the church have to lift in there contribution. I think this is how the use of gifts should be, ‘everyone gets to play’ [really]. It also means that as a church our finances are freed up to spend with mission as focus. This is reflected in our balance sheet.(There is at least one person who the church is putting through the forge internship as well as a few overseas missions that we contribute to).
Alot of these ideas have come from Neil Cole. He has some very interesting thing to think about. His main quote is ‘lower the bar in what it means to be church, and raise the bar of disipleship’. I think this also means also is that the office of professional clergy should also drop.
The quesion that I’m still figuring is ‘where the ‘buck stops’, and is a real requirement of leadership. maybe another blog.

]]> By: geoff http://www.geoffreport.com/wp/2007/02/26/the-clergy-question-movements-vocation-and-institutionalism/comment-page-1/#comment-3157 geoff Mon, 26 Feb 2007 03:28:23 +0000 http://www.geoffreport.com/wp/2007/02/26/the-clergy-question-movements-vocation-and-institutionalism/#comment-3157 Absolutely Charles. Part of the struggle I have with leading teenagers is that there is an inherent divide on the back of the fact that I'm responsible for looking after them - and I'm there to teach them. The other thing I meant to mention in the post was that I'm not wanting to take any pot-shots at anyone in "clergy" or even in "institutional churches". Most of the people whose leadership I would be modelling myself on would fit into either or both those labels. I just want to explore the ideas in the context of church-planting. Absolutely Charles. Part of the struggle I have with leading teenagers is that there is an inherent divide on the back of the fact that I’m responsible for looking after them – and I’m there to teach them.

The other thing I meant to mention in the post was that I’m not wanting to take any pot-shots at anyone in “clergy” or even in “institutional churches”. Most of the people whose leadership I would be modelling myself on would fit into either or both those labels. I just want to explore the ideas in the context of church-planting.

]]> By: Charles Churchill http://www.geoffreport.com/wp/2007/02/26/the-clergy-question-movements-vocation-and-institutionalism/comment-page-1/#comment-3156 Charles Churchill Mon, 26 Feb 2007 03:20:06 +0000 http://www.geoffreport.com/wp/2007/02/26/the-clergy-question-movements-vocation-and-institutionalism/#comment-3156 Geoff, This is good stuff. In addition to what you've mentioned, another effect of a professional clergy is the gulf it creates between the clergy and the laity. Suddenly, responsibility gets tied to a paycheck and people expect the pastor to do everything. I don't have time to go into detail, as I have ice cream sitting on the table melting, but I wanted to thank you for posting this. I'll read the comments with interest. Thanks, Charles Churchill Geoff,
This is good stuff. In addition to what you’ve mentioned, another effect of a professional clergy is the gulf it creates between the clergy and the laity. Suddenly, responsibility gets tied to a paycheck and people expect the pastor to do everything. I don’t have time to go into detail, as I have ice cream sitting on the table melting, but I wanted to thank you for posting this.

I’ll read the comments with interest.

Thanks,
Charles Churchill

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