Also, in defence of pastors teaching on the ‘plan for your life’ aspect: without completely discounting all that’s been taught by people much holier and smarter than I: could you not argue that this might be a method of getting a congregation to lift their collective eyes, look to the horizon, start dreaming and seeking visions of a bigger thing than that they currently do?

There’s nothing less Godly than a rabid bunch of theorists knowing the truth, the answer, but not doing it; and something curiously humble and simple about a bunch of people who find themselves doing the “right” thing but perhaps without knowing exactly why: I don’t believe our God (or more particularly, MY God) is one who likes to keep me in the dark (in particular because He’s placed curiosity in me) – but at the same time He’s also aware that my curiosity (and no doubt, others too) can lead me astray: at times like that I’m content just to do the right thing and sort out whether I was in control of that or not later on: in the end it’s only my (misguided?) view that I actually deserve some kind of control on the outcome of my life (when in the end, without God I’ll just die: and with God I go to be with Him…the almighty God, who would make me a puppet if he wanted and I’d just have to cop it. Because He’s God.) that causes me to barb up against the predestination thing.

Which is why I like what Rohan and Kate are suggesting: by the things God brings into my life I choose to react in a certain way to something: God’s going to learn me something through the circumstances of my life regardless, and how I choose to react to those things will determine my attitude through the journey: how much I enjoy the ride. Just like a rollercoaster.

wheeeeeeee

Plan/No Plan
Jer. 29:7 I know the plans I have for you… to prosper you and not harm you, plans to give you hope and a future.

I think God has a plan for us that is good, but I think His version of good and ours don’t always align. Some things that we need cause us to suffer and then grow. There’s more on that in Heb. 12 about discipline.

Choice
I agree that if God created automatons, then we are not free to choose not to love Him. Since we naturally don’t choose Him, then somewhere God has to be self-limiting. I don’t think that we are completely free to choose though (free will?). I think we are only able to choose after God (the Holy Spirit) enables us to choose.

I think of this like the Matrix. Neo wants to know what the matrix is, but he can’t choose to free himself until Morpheus makes the offer of the two pills.

Having said all that, my heart wonders how explicit God’s plan is for us. Does it cover lanes changes on the interstate? What you eat for breakfast? Also, since God can’t cause sin, then we must still be able to choose to stray from that plan. Richard Pratt has a lot to say about this in his ideas of the Kingdom and God’s blessings and curses (just in case your interested).

Anyway, there’s my 2 cents for what their worth.

First, those that hold to the reformed view believe that man has a choice. The question is whether the will is free or not. Certainly it is free to choose. But is the choice truly free? What choice do you believe you make that is completely separated from external influences? I would argue that no choice is free and in an open system in which God is sovereign, we believe he influences each choice to be made consistent with His master plan.

We like to use the cow analogy. If you have a cow with a bucket of oats to one side and a bucket of wheat on the other, which will the cow choose? If he has no desire for either, he will starve. If he has equal desire for both, he will also starve. Now where does the desire of our hearts come from? And if I follow that desire, I perceive that my will is free, but it comes from in fact it comes from God – or from a heart of sin, or … but in the end, God controls all choice such that there is control over choice yet not like that of a robot as the “anti-reformist” would say.

Then there is the issue with the concept of freedom. Two guys jump from a plane. One wearing a parachute and one not. The guy with the parachute asks the one without how he can jump with the control of the chute? Why doesn’t he prefer the freedom of not having a chute? The issue here is the the one claiming freedom is blind to the truth the neither one is free. Both are subject to gravity and the laws of physics. The reformist would argue the guy with the parachute knows the truth and that knowledge and acceptance has truly set him free. The other guy is living in rebellion and deception.

God has a plan for my life, but it’s not for ME that he has that plan. His plan for my life is more about the kingdom than about my comfort, I think.

As for whether the saved will have a better life than the unsaved, I don’ think that’s all wrapped up either, for the reasons I’ve already mentioned. But I do think there’s a greater sense of purpose to a life that is surrendered to God, than one that is not. If God did put us each here for a purpose, then we’re closer to fulfilling that purpose when we are obedient to Him.

I take more comfort from the idea that God was intentional when he made me, than the idea that he’s going to neatly package the rest of my days.

But I could just be rambling now…

But I don\’t know. See in a funny way, the God that comes out of what you\’re describing does certainly sound like a much more loving type of God, at least on some levels. And I\’m sure that part of my thought process is being effected by a struggle to work out for absolutely certain why I disagree so much with universalism (and there\’s a whole can of worms in that one) and so maybe this has leant my thinking away from a God who has a nice, work out well plan for those who get saved and less of that same idea for those who don\’t get in. (but I do understand that this is where choice comes in)

But in His Grace, the plan can change. God doesn’t plan divorce, or brokenness, or years of rebellion… but those things don’t write off his plan for me (or anyone else). Those things can change and effect the plan, just as they change a person’s character, but as no point does God scrap his ideal for me, nor does he settle for less in his plans for my life.

A wise friend (ok… i can’t remember who it was) said to me years ago, “There’s no better place to be than in the centre of God’s will”. And I believe that. Even the surrender of my will, or at least my submission of it to the Will of God, is still an act of my will… and I still have the freedom to choose what I do. But if I trust God (something pretty closely related to loving Him), then I can be sure that the plan he has – as different as it might be from my own – is a good one. It will be good for me, though I may not think so, and it will be good in terms of God’s intentions for the world around me.

But none of that removes the essence of choice. It just makes some choices better than others.